So really.. how far down is down?

This is part two of the interview with Bjorn Rise And Fall. See the previous post for part one. This one is about his band and some more random stuff.

Do you have a job outside of Rise And Fall?

"I’m currently unemployed. I haven’t worked in a year actually. But I’m looking for a job."

Did you stop working because of the band?

"Yes. I stopped working a year ago, because everyone in the band wanted to grab the opportunity to tour as much as possible and do things with the band we all wanted to do for some time. If you get so many opportunities to tour, you know that it will be impossible to be out there for four months without your boss kicking you out. So everyone decided to stop working at a certain stage and tour relentlessly for 6 or 7 months. After summer we weren't very active though. The other members have picked up their jobs again. I haven’t, but now I will."

How was it like to stop working and spend so much time with the band?

"It felt pretty good. The band has been around for 5 years now. After a couple of years, you notice things are becoming better and better. You like what you do and so you put huge amounts of energy and time in it. It’s your big passion in life, you know. And you know you can get more out of it, but you have to put so much of time in your job, instead of doing what you really want to do, which is quite frustrating. If you get the chance to say “fuck it, let’s do this”, then all of a sudden you have all this freedom to do with your time what you want to do."

But sure there’s certain obligations attached to that?

"Yes. We never turn down a show. If the band is your priority, and your not contrived by a job, it’s also easier to accept all the offers you get. If someone wants to tour with you, you don’t have to stress about it. That’s cool. If it was up to me we would have never stopped doing that. After the summer we could have written new material fulltime, but due to circumstances we weren’t able to do so. The fact that we spent six months doing nothing but the band-thing and being on the road constantly for three or four months also took it’s toll. We had to become familiar with being around each other so much and sometimes we got on each others’ nerves. No big deal though. I just think everyone was kind of tired of it after the summer. We also had to look for a new rehearsal room and I spent some time in the hospital. Those things have held us back on writing new material, but now everything is coming back together again. We have a new rehearsalplace, so we can start writing new songs. And after that we can start the usual schedule again: recording and touring."

Is there a certain feeling of responsibility towards the kids that's part of playing in a bigger hardcoreband?

"I try not to be too self-conscious about that. I know how I looked at the people that were on stage when I was younger. It was with a certain respect, and not of adoration. Well, most of the time at least. I never thought I would once be the guy on stage, so I’m having a hard time imagining that I can be for the kids now what those people were to me."

"I wouldn’t do or not do, say or not say certain things because of what people might think of it. Also because I want to be seen as someone that is completely himself, and no-one else. I don’t want to say things that I don’t fully believe myself. I don’t want to say things to appear funnier or tougher. I try not to put on a mask. But eventually, when you’re on stage, there is some sort of responsibility that makes you think twice about what you do."

What kind of message do you try to put in your own lyrics?

"I think other people are more likely to find some sort of message in my lyrics. I write about what occupies my mind every day. It’s some sort of therapy actually. If you don’t feel well, you can write it off. The lyrics also aren’t really about me alone, but about me in the context of this world, society and certain issues. But I don’t think the meaning of my lyrics is very clear most of the time. There are certain things in which I believe, and those are reflected in them, but it’s not too obvious. My own experience and ideals are in it, but mostly under the surface. So anyone can get out of them what they want."

Not so long ago, there was a small argument on a messageboard about Vogue (the band, not the magazine). I wasn't at the show they were talking about, but I heard they were kind of violent and there was some damage, which in turn pissed some people off. What do you think about bands that act extremely wild and violent on stage?

"I think that’s a hard question. The danger and the energy of hardcoreshows are important. They're a part of it’s attraction too. But it has to come spontaneous. I’m not pro the “hardcore should be dangerous, so let’s break some glasses on each other’s heads”-concept. The recklessness, the spontaneous and the unpredictable make hardcore what it is."

"In the case of Vogue, I know the singer quite well, for as far as such thing is possible, and the guy is just crazy. These guys also don’t give a damn about what is expected to happen on stage. If he wants to lay down on the floor, he does. I think it’s a good thing that there’s a band out there that confronts people with the fact that hardcore is also something like that. It’s not always controllable. But of course you have to draw a line somewhere."

Isn’t there some danger involved that the band will make it ‘their thing’, their gimmick?

"I think it’s mostly the audience that makes it ‘their thing’: “Vogue is playing, let’s see if something happens,” something like that. It will probably become a part of what draws people towards the band, but I don’t think they themselves really care about that. But you cannot look into someone’s head and analyse his motivation of course."

"In the case of Bounce (singer of Vogue), I’m pretty convinced that he’s crazy. What happens on stage with him is a chemical reaction you and I cannot understand."

Back to the scene in general, and your thoughts about it. Do you think hardcore some kind of relief for people from their monotonous daily lives?

"I don’t think hardcore is unique in that aspect. Many people do things outside of what’s considered ‘normal’, like listening to unconventional music, cultmovies, theatre, mountainclimbing.. All those things are means to escape daily life and having to get up for work and coming home to tired to do anything in the evening. That’s something that draws people to hardcore, but it could be lot's of things. It’s not exclusive to hardcore."

You've been involved for quite some time now. Did the scene change a lot over the years?

"If I look at which band were active back in the days, I do think there’s more diversity now. Many bands are busy with their own thing and try to be creative in pushing the boundaries of what’s possible or not in the genre. The downside is that the whole concept got somewhat blurry. If you talked about the hardcorescene back in tha days, they knew exactly what you were talking about. Over the years it has grown so exponentially it became very fragmented. You have all these different subscenes and subgenres that have less and less in comon with eachother, I don’t like that."

Don’t you think this diversity could be a plus as well?

"It would be an enrichement.. if it still was part of this greater whole. The problem is that the meaning of hardcore/punk got somewhat lost along the way. Many people involved now have no clue about where it came from, its history, the bands that paved the roads.. The less contact with the source, the more difficult it is to recognize certain things as hardcore. It’s still important to have a direct link between what you’re doing now en what happened early ‘80ies. You have to be aware of that history. Someone who doesn’t have clue, but considers himself involved with hardcore could be compared to a Christian that never read the bible, so to speak."

"If it lacks feeling, it's worthless to me"

Although you’ll rarely find me in the pit, punching random people or crowdsurfing, I too feel like a real hardcorekid. So when asked to pick a topic for my paper, I decided to try and write something about this music-centered community I –despite all cynism – hold close to my heart. Having all these vague ideas in my head, but not really knowing where to start, I decided to interview some people I thought were/are important to the scene and ask them for their personal experiences, hoping to be able to give this undecipherable feeling that accompanies the whole thing a name.

One of those people is Bjorn Dossche (27), whom most of you probably know as the singer for Belgium’s underground pride Rise And Fall. I hadn’t ever talked to him before and thus didn’t quite know what to expect when meeting him at De Vooruit in Ghent, but luckily, he turned out to be this really nice and easy-going guy, making this interview one of the most personal and casual ones in the heap. This is the first part of a rather long interview. Other parts will follow as soon as I find some time to transcribe and translate them.

Bjorn: “Back when I was twelve, I was into this whole metal-thing. With the small amount of money I had, I bought cassettes and CDs. CDs were just coming up back then. I also bought music magazines, and once I read this review for a Sick Of It All album. I completely dug what was written, the album got a good score and I bought it blindly. It had a huge impact. For me, that was the starting point to get to know other bands that were linked to SIOA and other big names from that time, like Biohazard and Life Of Agony."

"After a while, you start discovering all these smaller undergroundbands. When I was 14-15 years old I started going to shows. Once you discover those a new world reveals itself in front of you. Congress was my first show. Listening to an American band on CD is one thing, but discovering that there’s a network of people that share a more or less common view and that are working on the same thing in your own neighborhood is just ‘wow’.”

What impression did that first show leave?

“It was pretty mind-blowing. You read about these things, but you never imagine that they actually happen in small basements, with 150 attendees, of which 50 are going completely crazy. There’s loads of energy, positive vibes.

Also, these people actually had something to say on stage, they were representing something. You got the feeling you found something that was yours. To me, the connection between the audience and the band is important too. It’s a whole.”

What does the scene mean to you?

“I look at the hardcorescene as a forum for creativity. Everyone can pick up an instrument and start making music, and if you can’t play by the rules, it doesn’t matter. The most important thing is that you can write a song that touches and that you take a stand as a band. In hardcore it has never been necessary to be supertalented or have the finest equipment. You just had to make the best of it. It's an attitude I can relate to very much.”

Is it really still that way nowadays? People seem to expect more and more.

“Time never stops, and so recording technology and such constantly improves, but I think the basic principles have remained intact. Hardcore has been around for 25 years, so I think it’s normal for people to expect something more nowadays. The basic idea should remain untouched, though. I still think it’s cool that everyone can take the stage and just give himself entirely. That’s also the charming thing about it. If I see a band with young kids, and they’re not really good, but they just go for it all the way, that’s so much cooler than a band of professional musicians with towers of equipment, who are much older but still haven’t understood jack shit of it all, and who stand there with an attitude like “hey, you’ve got to respect us because we’re older.”
If it lacks feeling, it’s worthless to me.”

How would you explain to someone that has no clue at all what this whole 'scene' thing is?

“A bunch of lunatics.” (laughs)
No, I don’t know. I just wouldn’t I guess. It’s something you have to experience. To explain the whole concept to someone is impossible I guess. But a quick, ten-minute description will not get you any further either. You’d just have bring that person to a show. Experiencing it is the most important thing. And talking with people involved. That way, I think he’ll get a better image of those people. You can talk about it for hours, but eventually it’s the participation that makes the scene what it is. It’s not science or something.”

Which bands have been of great influence to you?

“In the beginning I would say SOIA, and Life Of Agony. When I got to know the smaller bands, also Strife. It was the first band I knew that was talking so openly about straightedge. I digged it a lot. Also Undertow and Unbroken.”

And nowadays?

“I always keep the bands with which I grew up in high regard. But from the ‘newer’ bands, I would say Blacklisted is one of my favorites. Justice, Rhythm To The Madness, Cold World, World Collapse.. lot’s of different things.”

How did those early bands influence you on a personal level?

"Once I started going more to shows and started to understand how everything worked, I began to realize that hardcore was some kind of free and open forum for certain ideas and ideals. Some people were more direct and confronting about that, like Earth Crisis. But it left an impression. There were lots of bands that al stood for something else and that weren’t afraid to be extreme or militant about that. I liked that. In the end, when you’re 15-16 years old and you’re still searching for yourself, a good idea for someone else is almost automatically a good idea for you. When you get older, you start seeing things in a more subtle way. But take Strife and their straightedge message for example: I could completely relate to what they had to say about it. “This is also my life,” I thought.”

recurring nightmare

i took the train yesterday, for the first time in months. i was going to rehearsal.
trains and stations have this peculiar thing about them. when i looked at my fellow passengers, there was nothing. everyone has the same facial expression, nobody shows anything, nobody talks. as we rode through flanders and the landscape was passing by, i became aware of the fear inside me for which i'm still figuring out a name. i became aware to the point where i almost fellt like i was in control of it, like it became a part of me. and i knew for a moment, among those lost housewives, businessmen and homeless hearts. i knew that i was dying. and the fear fell of me, like the rain that hit the window. i looked god straight in the eye and all i saw was another you.

philosophy of boots

you know the thing when you read all these anarchist books, about protests getting out of hand and people getting beaten up by riot police. in my case, there's always this little voice in my head telling me that it can't be true. police are here to maintain order. sure they have to show their teeth from time to time, but only if it's really necessary, right? my dad used to be an officer once. they just have to prevent things from getting out of hand, sometimes this requires violence to show those punks you're serious about it. and this thought had sunk deeper in my being than all the anarchist lectures ever did i guess. 'they are here to protect us from the bad guys'.

but last thursday was the day i witnessed police-brutality first hand, in my own country, in the city that i love, involving the people i like to call my friends, and i don't think i'll ever be able to look at these things in the way that i did. sure, we all like to say 'fuck the police' from time to time and think we are cool. but it just got a new and more profound meaning that evening.

what happened was that we were participating in this demonstration against fascism in the city of ghent, belgium. some 1000-1200 people gathered to show their discontent of an extreme-right gathering in the same city at the same time. 

at the very start of the demonstration, a group of anarchists (i can't really tell how many, but i guess there were 100-200 of them) dressed in black, many wearing masks decided not to follow the official demonstration and instead went their own way, presumably trying to reach the righties on the other side of town. my friends and i decided to just follow the regular demonstration, as we weren't really in for rioting at the time (any other time, just aks, but thursday night, nah).

after the official demonstration was finished (about which i'm not going to say too much, since it was a boring and uninspiring event, once more illustrating that left-wing politics need to rethink theirselves seriously) we were heading for a drink in a local club. on our way though, we bumped into a group of anarchists that were trying to get through a police barrier. there was some verbal aggression, but all in all, no violence. the police forces were shouting incomprehensible orders through their megaphone, when suddenly they decided that it had been enough and opened fire with their water canon/gun (i don't know what the accurate term is for these things). as we tried to flee the scene, we suddenly found ourselves (along with some 200 other people) trapped by police forces, coming from all sides and not letting anyone through. which was quite ironic, since they ordered us to leave the place.

from then one, everything happened in a whirlwind. people were trying to take cover from the water gun, while officers were pushing them back. Anarchists were throwing things (they weren't throwing or destroying anything at first), giving the police a good excuse to storm the demonstration. people that didn't have anything to do with the whole thing and that just happened to be on the wrong place at the wrong time got beaten and kicked by these robocops. i never saw anything like it.

anyway, they forced everyone to sit down, threatening to use the water gun again if we didn't. one girl was trying to take a picture of the whole thing. some stressed-out police-dude noticed, tried to pull her out of the group and hit her in the face. seriously, this is the sort of thing you only read about. after that we had to sit down for an hour, picking out random people to arrest before letting us go. 

being there and bearing witness to this sort psychological and physical violence, in this country, in that city, at that place and time just changes something inside you. the way in which you perceive society changes. it was completely unnecessary to storm the crowd, to hit people, to use the water gun, and especially to hit that girl. i hope she is ok.

the day after i saw the news on television. how they pictured the whole thing made me even sadder.

(the picture displayed is taken from the indymedia-site ovl.indymedia.org and presumably belongs to one named Vik. Check their site for more info and pictures of the events.)

the future is unwritten

last saturday i went to the alternative bookfair in ghent. last year i spent way too much money there, and i haven't even read all the books i bought back then. mainly because they tend to get boring after a while. or maybe because i need more reading-discipline. nevertheless, here's this years damage:

Rolling Thunder #4 (CrimethInc.)

this was the one i was going for in the first place. i haven't yet finished reading the other three issues though. to be honest, i don't really think i'll ever read them profoundly. i just fell for the lay-out and the poem on the cover.

Society Of The Spectacle (Guy Debord)

vally introduced me to this one. i started reading the printed text he had in his apartment. i'd love to understand the full meaning of this book, but i already know it'll be hard pill to swallow. Debord writes small paragraphs that function almost as puzzles and it's hard to decipher its meaning sometimes. i hope i will manage someday. come 

to think of it, maybe it wasn't meant to be deciphered or have any meaning at all. damn confusing situationists.

Expect Resistance (CrimethInc.)

yet another crimethinc. publication. i just bought this blindly, hoping it will inspire me as much as Days Of War, Nights Of Love did. it has to be said that this collective features some of the best writers in the 'genre'.  Never sounding to academic or elitists, but always thought-provoking and inspiring. come to think of it, maybe i should translate their text's to dutch someday and do my part in spreading these ideas.

Anarchy In The Age Of Dinosaurs

i don't know what this is about. it was cheap. it had a nice title. it consist mainly of stories i think.

The Philosophy Of Punk (Craig O'Hara)

i bought this one to get some inspiration for my paper (which should be almost finished, but is far from..). i'm already halfway, it's a rather easy read. but i don't know if it will be of much assistance. i haven't found too much in-depth philosophy yet in this one. the guy just discusses some currents in punk and distances others from them.

(but i wonder if anything will ever happen if i just keep reading this stuff?)